Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Songs
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Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Songs
WikiProject Songs (Rated Project-class)
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August Rigo link please

Hello, can we link August Rigo to his popflock.com resource page? He wrote this song as well as the new song Tough Love on Chris Brown's Heartbreak on a Full Moon album.

Opinions of use of rowspans on song articles?

Asking here as many articles for songs use rowspans and there is some overlap with editors of general music articles. After a long, at times far off-topic and mudslinging discussion at Talk:Sabrina Carpenter discography, several users are indicating that they are now going to seek modification of WP:ACCESS, a guideline, to make clear that rowspans should not be used in most cases on music articles, because it is the opinion of said editors that music-related WikiProjects have lagged behind the rest of popflock.com resource in regards to accessibility for visually-impaired readers. What do you all think of this proposed change to not use rowspans in most cases? I and another editor were called "just as bad as racists and homophobes" by one particularly worked-up user for not agreeing with the removal of rowspans--it's my guess most here would be bestowed such a comparison if they disagree by those who made Sabrina Carpenter discography their battleground for this change. It mostly affects using rowspans for columns not on the left-hand side of a page (mostly the "Album" column on discographies). No need to ping me, just seeking the opinions of those here because it's a more active music WikiProject than Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discographies and even Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music. Ss112 00:36, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

No worse than the sports articles I've seen (Cristiano Ronaldo#Career statistics, but other sports seem to be a bit better). I don't have a screen reader so I can't confirm that the formatting without the rowspans is better or worse (and just because one screen reader claims it's no different doesn't mean all screen readers will make the same claim). I trust that the folks at ACCESS will be able to shed light on this. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Please be careful not to WP:CANVASS in the future (neutrality of statement) as well as not to spread the same discussion to multiple places. --Izno (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
@Izno: Excuse me? I'm not canvassing. I know what it is; I don't need to be linked or reminded. I am asking for impartial opinions from music editors on if it becomes the case that rowspans are going to become targeted. That is not the same topic or discussion. I want editors to reply here, and I did not ask people to comment at the other talk page--I pointed out the origin only and voiced my opinion of that situation, which I am allowed to do because I'm not canvassing. Sabrina Carpenter's discography talk page is not the centre of all discussions relating to use of rowspans and I am absolutely allowed to ask elsewhere for opinions. Please don't assume, misconstrue my intentions or cast aspersions on what I'm asking here because of what happened elsewhere. Thank you. Ss112 06:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
"It is the opinion that the music projects have lagged behind" is not neutral language. It is charged language to call out specific language by a "particularly worked-up user". I could go on with the rest of your comment here. Yes, this is essentially canvassing/WP:FORUMSHOPping and self-admitted deliberately splitting a discussion. Canvassing has little to do with intention judgement--it is entirely about the effects of where and how you talk about a subject elsewhere. As I said earlier, be careful in the future. --Izno (talk) 14:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
@Izno: Great, except that the user who said "lagged behind" is not the user who insulted me. I started a separate discussion from what is being discussed at that discography. The discussion does not have to be kept there. I don't agree with your characterisation of what I've attempted to ask here, and you're essentially just sidetracking the discussion. Please assume good faith in future. Thanks. Ss112 14:50, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Ariana Grande song title stylizations

Its clearly verifiable that the song titles for Ariana Grande's album Sweetener are all lowercased (except God Is a Woman which is sentence cased) on every music service Spotify, iTunes, YouTube. But Woodensuperman has decided (with no sources or consensus to back him up) that these song title stylizations are "absolute nonsense" and has removed them from several articles. Since this is more or less a discussion about the stylization convention of song articles in general and not just these specific articles, I think this is the appropriate venue to further this discussion and get third party opinions. I see no reason to deprive people of this clearly correct information about how these song titles are stylized.--NØ 10:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

It has long been common practice on albums and singles track listings to drop a cap on the title, or list the songs all in caps, etc. It is such a common thing to happen, it's not worth mentioning and we certainly don't need to bring attention to such a minor style point in the lede. We don't do that with With the Beatles or "Beetlebum", and we don't need to do that here. You also seem to be ignoring the artwork for these songs which does not even back up your claim File:Ariana Grande No Tears Left to Cry.png, File:God Is a Woman single cover.png. --woodensuperman 10:30, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
I always remove notes like this too. I never understand why people feel compelled to add them. It serves no purpose. Why do we need to explain such simple "stylizations" to the reader? Are we to believe that they're going to not recognize that "No Tears Left to Cry" and "no tears left to cry" as the same song? People can figure out this sort of thing on their own. Sergecross73 msg me 11:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Apologies but I don't agree with this argument? People can probably also figure out that Black Pink is the same band as BLACKPINK and GetItRight is the same song as "#GETITRIGHT" but that still doesn't sound like a valid reason to remove a stylization from Wikipedia. Its only a disservice to readers imo. Just because people "may know it" doesn't mean popflock.com resource should not be providing information about that stylization to people who do not know it. It so obviously makes no positive difference but can easily make a negative one, this argument really sounds like a regurgitated version of WP:IDLI.--NØ 13:57, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
You've claimed it's a "disservice" to omit it, but what exactly is the service provided by adding it? You just literally admitted it "makes no positive difference". Then what is the significance here? Why is it important for this to be be pointed out to the reader? And please assume good faith - no one has remotely cited liking or not liking it. It's fine if you disagree, but don't misrepresent other's arguments. Sergecross73 msg me 15:55, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
FWIW pasting here my edit summary earlier: ""just like all the songs from the album" gives an indication how common this is, furthermore artwork shows it is not exclusively so styled. Removed as non-noteworthy trivia". It's very common for marketing to include typographical tweaks such as reversed letters, upside-down letters, all caps, random caps et cetera ad nauseam. popflock.com resource does not document all these weird and wonderful attempts to catch your eye. All lower case is at the banal end of the scale. In this particular case we can judge the importance the creators themselves place upon it by the fact it isn't even consistently applied. What font is it? Is it bold? Superscript? Italic? It doesn't matter, it adds no value to the article, it's trivia. Captainllama (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
MOS:TMSTYLE already settled this issue with it is conventional to give the normal English spelling in the lead section, followed by a note, such as "(stylized as ...). --Gonnym (talk) 11:05, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it applies in this case, firstly because it's not a trademark, and secondly, it is such common practice to decapitalize songs on tracklistings, etc., it doesn't really count as stylization, so it ends up being trivial and unnecessary clutter. And in a lot of the cases above in question here, it's not even backed up by the artwork for the single, so usage isn't even consistent by the artist (Look at No Tears Left to Cry for example). --woodensuperman 11:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, exactly this. It's acceptable to make notes about certain stylixations, sure. But situations like this are too mundane and self-explanatory to spell out for the reader. Sergecross73 msg me 11:39, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
We do not mimic non-standard stylization in titles and most other situations per [[MOS:TITLE#Typographic effects]], [[MOS:LCITEMS]] etc. The only real exceptions are proper names (k.d. lang) and In contexts where the case of symbols is significant (mathematic formulas). I have myself corrected film, TV series, and TV episode titles improperly stylized in this way, I don't see why non-stylization wouldn't apply to song titles.-- TAnthonyTalk 15:29, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
As noted, being all in lower-case letters is so common it is unnecessary to point it out. And we would have to apply it to so many song and album articles - apart from With the Beatles mentioned above, it would also apply to Out of Our Heads, Bryter Layter, Like a Virgin, The Last Broadcast, etc. etc... Richard3120 (talk) 15:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Actually, the [L|l]ang case needs to be revisited. The number of independent reliable sources, especially outside of entertainment journalism, that still do "lang" has dropped markedly over the last decade. -- SMcCandlish ? ¢ ? 23:00, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Oh christ, we're getting "(stylized in all caps)" too!!! - See these Meghan Trainor songs [1][2][3]. --woodensuperman 16:35, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
  • NO. The "stylized as..." thing is something we only occasionally do for actual trademarks, and only "strong marks" at that, where we think there could conceivably be a WP:RECOGNIZABILITY problem ("Am I really at the right article?") We could and should probably remove such comments from about 85% of the places where they've been inserted. The idea of adding them to parrot album/single cover typography is absurd. It's patently unencyclopedic and simply an attempt to WP:GAME around MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, and MOS:TM, and WP:OFFICIALNAME, and MOS:TITLES, (etc.) all at once. Anyone familiar with industrial and other genres that play with typography a lot will know how poor an idea this is. You'll find that even most of the music press, despite being more likely than any other genre of nonfiction to try to mimic stylization of band and album names, rarely does so for font effects on song titles to match the liner notes. The first rule at MOS:CAPS is to not do strange things with letter case except in an instance where independent sources do so with near-total uniformity. -- SMcCandlish ? ¢ ? 23:00, 8 December 2018 (UTC); rev'd. 17:01, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't care how the songs are styled by the artist... I do care how they are styled in sources that are independent of the artist. Especially high quality sources. If they lower case, so should we. If they uppercase, so should we. Blueboar (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Single release date

Is plaympe.com a reliable source for the statement that "Death of a Bachelor" was released to radio in December 2016 (and that this constitutes its release date as a single), and is its release to radio the best date to say it was released as a single? The song's music video was released in December 2015 and the song itself peaked on the Billboard 100 in November 2015. Panic! at the Disco discography did not list it as a single until 7 October 2017, when it was added by BlaccCrab. Multiple editors have changed the infobox release date to 2015. Jc86035 (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Notability of Cover Songs

I don't want to get into a long discussion about this, so if no one agrees with me, then I'll drop the matter quickly. But I just wanted to mention that I more or less agree with the concerns raised by Carptrash in this discussion from a few months ago. It seems like it would be reasonable enough to include all of the covers recorded by notable artists in a table of some sort, at least with regards to songs that have been copyrighted (a much stricter criteria would, of course, have to be used for songs in the public domain). I recognize that certain songs, like "Yesterday", pose a unique problem, and I wouldn't advocate for mentioning all 2,000+ covers in that particular case. But perhaps a happy medium of some sort could be reached? --Jpcase (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I am doing (at the receiving end) eye surgery right now and very little work here but it it nice to see this. If no one shows up saying otherwise let's considerer it a done deal. Carptrash (talk) 04:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Actual informative tables that can be nicely put into hide-able sections are a good place to go with this. I think my primary objection is to great big lists of unannotated blue links. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 06:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
WP:MOSCOLLAPSE. If you intend to present the information in only one place, you should not collapse it. --Izno (talk) 15:11, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. I'm grasping at straws for a middle place; generally, I delete those lists from articles about standards on sight. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I am at a loss to see how a list of who have recorded a song could pass GNG. So few song articles have anything about the song yet we have a request to add what is in essence, trivia. A single referenced paragraph (written and not a list, box or other contraption) to show the depth and width of recordings made, that a folk song has been recorded as a heavy metal song which additionally shows the importance of the song. Otherwise we finish up with abominations like List of artists who have recorded "Jingle Bells" which serves no purpose but massage the egos of the editors who have taken ownership of the main article and the list. The proposal would also fail WP:NSONGS --Richhoncho (talk) 10:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
And all these covers then end up in the navboxes too... --woodensuperman 12:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the GNG and NSONGS are both meant to be used when determining whether a topic is notable enough for a standalone article; I don't believe that those guidelines are meant to be used when determining whether an individual fact is notable enough to be mentioned within an article. Because I'm not talking about creating separate, standalone articles for each individual cover version of a given song, I'm not sure that either of those guidelines are meant to be applicable here.
What I'm advocating for is creating a table that could list all of the cover versions that notable artists have recorded of a given song and then placing that table within the existing article about the song (as jpgordon mentioned, the table could even be collapsible). And again, I would absolutely want to see stricter standards used when dealing with public domain songs - so I of course wouldn't want to see an article for a song like "Jingle Bells" mention every single notable artist who's ever recorded it. --Jpcase (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Notability is not inherited. I think that logic applies here too: that a notable artist has recorded a version of a song does not make that version of the song, on its own, notable. My own criterion would be "is the song worthy of mention in the singer's article?" --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, notability isn't inherited, but WP:NOTINHERITED is another guideline about whether or not topics are notable enough to receive their own standalone articles; to my knowledge, NOTINHERITED isn't meant to be used when determining whether a fact is notable enough to be mentioned within an article.
That said, your criterion is reasonable enough - it seems too strict to me, but I can understand where you're coming from. Personally, I just don't feel that readers of popflock.com resource will come away with a full understanding a song's legacy, unless an article on a given song presents all of the covers of that song that have been recorded by notable artists. And I don't really see the harm in allowing for all of these covers to be listed in a table - up to a reasonable limit of course. --Jpcase (talk) 16:18, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Many notable artists release cover albums, I don't see a need to note this on the article for every song covered on those albums. If there is some significance to such recordings and mentioned in a third-party source, sure. Mentioning Luther Vandross' cover of Love the One You're With in that song's article makes sense to me, listing his version in What the World Needs Now Is Love doesn't. The fact that a certain song has been covered numerous times may be worth noting in an article but to list every version by a notable artist simply because they covered it is a bit overkill. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 17:38, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the concept, but not proposed the execution. I'm glad the collapsed option was taken off the table quickly. A table is too heavy for something like this. A simple bullet list would suffice.
I'll offer a few comments to support the idea. AllMusic already attempts to do something like this by linking each song title and when done correctly, the link takes you to a list of versions recorded by the band. Yes, many songs by the Beatles have hundreds of covers, but so do many Leonard Cohen songs (what's "Hallelujah" up to now, not including the 17 listed covers that charted?) Let's look at a concrete example: Point of Know Return by Kansas]. All ten songs are linked. We would not likely do that. The link for the first song, the title track, lists the "Appears On" list that shows that all but one of the covers are by the band. I'm assuming that's not the goal here. Compare that to "Dust in the Wind". Still, no other covers, only compilations. Let's look at a song by the Beatles that isn't "Yesterday", such as "it Be". It doesn't list covers. That's the case with "Hallelujah" as well. And to add an exclamation point: Bruce Springsteen penned "Blinded by the Light" (with the help of a rhyming dictionary), but the version that charted isn't listed at that entry. In all cases, you have to go to the "Also Performed By" tab. By our standards, that's very hidden.
With that in mind, if we were to implement something like this, I would argue that a list of no more than a dozen otherwise notable performers could be added in a covers section, provided that it has an album name and a source (that is more than a database entry of the album). If it's more than a short number of entries all covers could be added to a new article, but that article would be listed as a tab, just like (in my skin) we have Article and Talk at the top. It would require working with someone more technical to address, but it's certainly possible. Heck, we should have the discography and members pages linked like that, but that's a separate challenge. If that can't be done, a new article could be added. Again, the references are key. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:14, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Silent Night's 200th anniversary is on December 24th

Autograph (c. 1860) of the carol by Franz Gruber

Hi all. "Silent Night" was first performed on Christmas Eve in 1818, and consequently will appear on the Main page in the "On this day" section on December 24th. As the article is within the scope of this Wikiproject I figured editors here might be interested in improving it before then. There are no major issues with it that I can see, but it's also rather short and I feel certain it could be significantly expanded if interested editors had a go at it. I'd be happy to help out, of course, but as this isn't remotely my field I fear I have very little to contribute. Any takers? (PS. Cross-posting this to WP:CM and WP:SONGS as the most relevant Wikiprojects with recent activity.) --Xover (talk) 10:12, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

(PS. @Xover: Your small lightly-colored text is really hard to see. --Izno (talk) 03:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC))

Discussion about the Latvian charts

Hello, I would like to inform anyone who's interested about this discussion on the legitimacy of the Latvian airplay chart that's being used in several articles. ×°~`°×¢?×°~`°× 09:37, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Four songs in one article

Currently, the "Cocaine Blues" article deals with at least 4 different songs. Please discuss at Talk:Cocaine Blues if you care. --  AjaxSmack  21:36, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


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